S-FM 355: Nonstandard Roles 3

[oliverz144]

@oliverz144 what are you claiming?

nothing. im not claiming until helz answers the following question:
is 2 town death and a lynch for one red check flip a good trade? @Helz

[oliverz144]

sorry, im kinda rude rn. very irritated.

[oliverz144]

yeah yeah sorry @Huo Huo and Mr Tail

i take that back. im deeply sorry and sad. you are cute as a button. and very smart, playing this game is already proof enough.
im sorry i was rude to you, please forgive me. Have a nice day

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

Imagine calling dumb the only person that's 2/2 in scum hunting, where does that leave the rest?

there's also a reason behind my question, because I don't know your alignment.

-Huohuo possesed by Mr Tail

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

but I do accept your apology

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

Imagine calling dumb the only person that's 2/2 in scum hunting, where does that leave the rest?

there's also a reason behind my question, because I don't know your alignment.

-Huohuo possesed by Mr Tail

to explain myself better, I ws asking to see if you would slip or lie, I know wht you might be softing, but it's like pointless to soft it

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

Mizery has a lot of scum equity with cape

@Helz , could you bride Mizery?

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

why is MM not dead

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

why is Martin not dead

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

there's one neutral or scum between lily and porscha

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

there's one neutral or scum between lily and porscha

at least 1 I would say

-Mr Tail

[Dark Magician]

there's one neutral or scum between lily and porscha

Lily is Town.
Porscha can be Neut.

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

Lily is Town.
Porscha can be Neut.

I think lily has equity with mizery tho

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

LIST OF READS - MID-D2



Helz - duh

Huo Huo - the odds of their claim being false are very low
Martin - generally solvy tone, asking questions with follow-ups, voting Huo with me at EoD is a good look (no reason for scum to follow me there, knowing that Baker was town), also called me performative early (meta says town because he seems to always think I'm performative because I do things lol); general lack of red flags

Dark Magician - his "thug life townie style" annoys me, but I think he's genuine in it lol, there's also a visible progression

Oliverz - looked like he was genuinely happy to have "found scum" when he voted Baker on D1; weak D2 so far, though, actually kinda suspicious, so he doesn't get to enter townread heaven
Scumbot - Pretty much like Dark Magician, but weaker, idk; could easily be neutral, but probably not scum
Luka - gut town
Porscha - gut town from early game, but decaying a lot from... literally not existing


--- Null zone ---

Bunch of unimpressive inactives - Varcron, Auwt

--- Null zone ---


Lilypetal - generally unimpressive, early D1 post pings me (already mentioned that a lot), fits in pretty much all scum teams, there seems to be resistance to pushing her for a reason I fail to understand = suspicious
Mizery - see my recent post regarding her ISO

Cape - I believe Huo

nvm this guy is town or I'm terribly wrong

[Huo Huo and Mr Tail]

Martin
scumbot
Lilypetal
BWC
Mizery

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Spoiler : long post addressing my case on Lily :

Firstly, I must address an egregious and entirely unjustifiable offense.

The link to an ISO is not the search results page, its the button that triggers the search right before sending you to the page (which is very frequently the link that is used to generate the search results). So its actually here https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...rder=ascending



Secondly, this sort of comparison has me worried about potentially misreading off of varying levels of engagement (we all -- or I think we all -- tend to vary) from game to game either because mood or just life or even simply because its a game on a community you've never played before / / don't plan to play often in. That said though, I'm inclined to agree based on a post Lily made earlier about being content (see quote below), and then looking at their (of the MU game) D4 posts including this first one and this second one which were made at different points of the day phase and they had made 55-some posts for that day phase.



Its not perfect, the context of that game was different. From what I could tell D4 they felt like they were in a losing position and so I can imagine for some being a critical difference as compared to winning. Still though, both are potential situations where one's engagement may drop. Helz is probably much better at weighing in on this than I am, I might be good but I think part of my skill comes from relying on meta of others and not having to meta-dive to know of said meta lol. Like I hardly know lily, or maybe not know lily at all (I think I've seen a few different lily-esque names, all different people I THINK).

Firstly, if you're scum here, you literally stole my soul or something like that. You're like... the ideal actually solvy townie acting like I would if I were in your mind. I am jumping in that lovely, warm and cozy pocket right here

MM face reveal in Martin's real pocket, 100 % true, trust me guys

translation: i am probably never lynching Martin here, and if you think he's scum, sue me


Regarding Lily: I know analogies are not perfect, but that's the downside of meta. Besides, considering I was literally the only push against her (at least the only serious one / the only one resulting in a serious vote), the situation isn't that different, and I was looking at the D1 here. She did say she wanted to be "low effort" this game, but there's "low effort" and... straight up not contributing lol. And Lily, if you feel like I'm unjustly behaving like I'm entitled to seeing you participate more, I'm not: you're really the lowest contributor of the game, and when you sign up for a game, you're meant to participate in it ;-;
Tbh, in hindsight, I could perhaps see her as a reaaally, reaaaaaaaaaaaally apathetic townie, but that's just disgustingly annoying lol. And besides, PoE needs 2 more scum aside from clearly scum Cape, and 2 more neutrals aside from dead Varcron, so I'm not inclined to give the benefit of the doubt too hard either.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

And MM feels the same as last game but the question is is he a wolf or does he just always sound like that

Either you're really terrible at reading me or you're not actually trying
(or i got actually good at faking my town play last game, but that's unlikely lol)

I guess I am highly biased lol, but I feel very different from when I'm scum, and iirc you were able to catch that difference in past games, although I might not remember correctly
Maybe that points at you not actually trying to figure people out, just MAAAYBE, but that's slim, I know

[Marshmallow Marshall]

it would be best to have someone accept a proposal if we do choose to kill helz because then the day wouldn't be entirely wasted.

It would also be best for that to happen today so that if they do turn out to be village we have more time to work with an IC in the PoE

I'm afraid that's a terrible idea, unless we actually want the married one lynched... in which case they probably won't accept anyway. Remember we are likely going to be forced to lynch Helz to avoid bounty hunter triggering. Unless there's something I'm not seeing?

Also, I'm tired and I feel my brain is malfunctioning lol, so I'm going off

[Mizery]

Either you're really terrible at reading me or you're not actually trying
(or i got actually good at faking my town play last game, but that's unlikely lol)

I guess I am highly biased lol, but I feel very different from when I'm scum, and iirc you were able to catch that difference in past games, although I might not remember correctly
Maybe that points at you not actually trying to figure people out, just MAAAYBE, but that's slim, I know

like it may be the fact that i'm somewhat intoxicated 90% of the time I'm in thread but this is like also my second game playing mafia in like half a year or so, so I really don't remember how i thought of you before and the last game isn't a good example because you made, what, two posts or so because it was over D1

[Mizery]

like it may be the fact that i'm somewhat intoxicated 90% of the time I'm in thread but this is like also my second game playing mafia in like half a year or so, so I really don't remember how i thought of you before and the last game isn't a good example because you made, what, two posts or so because it was over D1

o k that sounds bad but its under control i don't have a problem

[Luka]

Oli Dollys emotion is genuine
Theyre town here

[Luka]

Martin
scumbot
Lilypetal
BWC
Mizery

Martin is town
LilyPetal has heavy town equity
BWC Mizery Scumbot I agree with

[bwcPorscha]

On MartinGG

I am and will always stay paranoid of them. Its mostly that I expect their range as a player to include how they are playing but I would lean more likely neutral than team scum if they are not town. Specifically how openly they have pushed every player in the game so naturally leads me to that conclusion. As team scum you have to be cautious when pushing less skilled players and that can create holes in your interactions which I do not see out of him.
They are certainly playing as town. Small details like strongly town reading MM and triangulating his reads off them fit very well. Over all I town lean this slot although I do not think I am capable of ever being comfortable with them.

yeah that's how i've felt about martin too

[bwcPorscha]

MM. I honestly think you are letting your bias get to you.
People can post and do stuff however the fuck they want to even if it’s not to your or someone else’s satisfaction.
However Lily did suspect Cape early on so you can’t say they are against town when they have been nothing but right so far.

IMO your pro town if your right and anti town if your wrong.
That’s how I see FM Games.
So that’s why if I ever be wrong I Re-Eval to make sure I’m right.
I’ve been in so many FM games now I’ve gotten the hang of reading others alignments.

I even told you all yesterday Cape was odd and I was right so.

wolves and 3p notoriously never town side and are notoriously always incorrect in their reads

[bwcPorscha]

lol ok




I mean, if you actually are town, you're going against your own team's interest by actively refusing to be towny and to do anything productive, like, at all. I'm not dead set on you being evil, I just think you're extremely strange and can't be simply left alone. In fact, if I had to bet on a likely Bounty Hunter slot, I'd go with yours, since you seem to be waiting for the game to advance.

@Huo Huo and Mr Tail , you should probably check Lily tonight. It's not like she's going to get killed by scum lol, it achieves basically nothing for them, assuming she's not straight up one of them. That or evil teacher ig

cuz I think this is a good post fr lol

[bwcPorscha]

This entire day instead of Mizery voting for Cape they decided to put sus on the person with the check still.

MM please let me know.

Does Mizery as wolf REFUSE to vote and buss their teammate?
If so, this is Mizery!Wolf 100.

no she likely doesnt do that lol

[bwcPorscha]

like the possibility is always there yeah but I wouldn't expect her to play around cape like that

i suck at wolfing and wouldnt

and she doesnt suck at wolfing so I think she wouldnt

[bwcPorscha]

You're right, meta would be cool. Aaaand I just realized we have ze power ov ze interwebs! https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...rchid=19096118 that's Lily's ISO in a recent town game (in which Baker was lol).

Is it just me or is this ISO in the same style, but more "rich"? Like, there is this post (link) that's reminiscent of her post against Cape, but it's more detailed: it shows analysis of the player she accuses, there's worldbuilding, etc. Compare it with the only substantial post she has made this game.


vs

The former is analysis, whereas the latter is point-out-y. It lacks the worldbuilding and the obvious solviness of the former.

Also look at this other post from the same game: "so explain why! come on now it's not that hard" --> it's super short but it shows EAGERNESS TO SOLVE. And that was post #321 of that game, during early D1. There is NONE of that from her in our game. She literally went "Oh so I was right, Cape got red checked, yaaayyy" and that's it (if you compare this with her push on Zenon in that other game, she actively argues with people who disagree with her case).

@Helz and @MartinGG99 (pinging you two because you're my two top towns + are good at analyzing), are you seeing what I am here, or am I tunneling?

I have meta and have called her wolfy, I feel left out by this t.t w/e you're seeing it

[bwcPorscha]

Cuz it means nothing coming from a woof
woof wouldve done it the day before for wifom (fun!)

but why wouldn't they do it afterwards. like is there something preventing a wolf from doing this

[bwcPorscha]

Zenon while a good decent player has such high aggression and the way they push a player is nuts.

is this not the most kettle calling the pot black lol... weird thing to say about zenon. not important for the point that was made

[bwcPorscha]

This is my first game here, the person I joined this game for got mled day 1 while I was asleep, and I intentionally was taking this game easy in the first place. While your read makes sense, it falls into the classic mafia player problem where they don't understand that effort differs from game to game and isn't exactly that AI. Fmpov we are just waiting for a wolf to finally die thus I'm not too pressed to wallpost and find a wolf. I found a wolf and I'm waiting for him to die. Effort comes after

>:/ kind of a good post though

[bwcPorscha]

"I wish the cop checked me" really isn't something i associate with "townie"

er... so... you disagreed with luka, then?

[MartinGG99]

But protective goes on me, don't be stupid

Tyvm glgl

-Huohuo

why is MM not dead

why is Martin not dead

you expected yourself to get attacked n2, why are you asking this

[Luka]

but why wouldn't they do it afterwards. like is there something preventing a wolf from doing this

Nothing preventing it, jst think its more likely for a woof to do it before hand.

[Mizery]

I feel like it's more likely a wolf talk about it afterwards because it's theoretically the same lamist just after the threat is over

[MartinGG99]

Firstly, if you're scum here, you literally stole my soul or something like that. You're like... the ideal actually solvy townie acting like I would if I were in your mind. I am jumping in that lovely, warm and cozy pocket right here
[snipped image]
MM face reveal in Martin's real pocket, 100 % true, trust me guys

translation: i am probably never lynching Martin here, and if you think he's scum, sue me

frankly I think you've put a bit too much weight into my response

I could've easily done it the same way if I were neutral, and after I made it I wasn't really satisfied with what I came up with upon reflection. It all felt a bit too stretchy.

Also, like, if you keep gushing that I'm town I'm going to get concerned that you were explicitly trying to pocket me and make sure I stay there. I don't think that at all right now, but I'm just saying I'd prefer the results of our interactions to not be "Omg Martin is so town" and more like, y'know, substantially discussing what I've said (I'm assuming the "Regarding Lily:" part was a response to Lily instead of me).

[bwcPorscha]

Again DM keeps shouting out his misrepresentation of my ISO

In no way did i say that cape was town and therefore I will not vote him because Huo is Evil teacher

What I did say was that Huo could be evil teacher and their claim of grave digger doesn't clear him.
I don't think Huo would take a gamble and push on some rando if they were evil teacher that they didn't know the alignment of though, so in this unlikely scenario they would have had to have checked two people they thought were mafia and decided to claim it.
Huo not checking in between me anad DM though can imply more that they are evil if they think both DM and I are village and still wanted to get a kill off.

I'm not clearing Huo til we get an evil teacher flip.

I think it's less likely but this is a believable thought process . DM going in too hard

[bwcPorscha]

OMG
you marry cape
we lynch your ass
ba dum yeaaaaah

:dank_puff:

[bwcPorscha]

I should OMGUS on this

??

[bwcPorscha]

Zenon? xD (link)

gottem lmaooo

[bwcPorscha]

now scum will never kill me and im stuck as lhf lynchbait till lylowhere you will all suddenly random ass decide to vote me and we lose
thank you =)

I actually think you've looked townier from your last posts

they make sense to me and seem genuine

[oliverz144]

aww thank you <3
anyways there is few time left.

I hardclaim TOWN VENGEFUL
if @Helz marries me, then
today we lynch either one of us
helz dies-> bounty hunter denied
i die -> i vengeful cape

and then tomorrow you dont have to waste the lynch on Helz, but rather can kill scum or neut.
@Helz you in? or do you necessarily want to live another day as conf town? your decision my dear.

I also think this is a good time for everyone to claim.

[bwcPorscha]

Martin is town
LilyPetal has heavy town equity
BWC Mizery Scumbot I agree with

how does lily have "heavy" town equity lol come on. why are we all acting like a wolf lily wouldn't just park vote on wolf partner cape and fuck off? especially if you aren't able to commit a lot of time to the game. like it's an entirely normal vision of distancing. it's the 1 real shred of town equity she has and it's impossibly easy to achieve. fantastic plan if you're going to hardly play the game.

like, yeah, is it possible lily is town? sure. is it possible lily is not town? sure.
I don't believe YOU believe she has "heavy" town equity. she has 1 shred of town equity, which does not equal heavy town equity.

like at this rate I'm thinking maybe she is just town and got tmi'd or something. this read is not believable to me

[bwcPorscha]

I dont get why anybody would marry helz if they plan on dying tomorrow WITH helz when cape is going to flip regardless, and we are going to lynch helz regardless, but whatever lol

like, what? to confirm a town who will immediately die? what's the point?

[bwcPorscha]

aww thank you <3
anyways there is few time left.

I hardclaim TOWN VENGEFUL
if @Helz marries me, then
today we lynch either one of us
helz dies-> bounty hunter denied
i die -> i vengeful cape

and then tomorrow you dont have to waste the lynch on Helz, but rather can kill scum or neut.
@Helz you in? or do you necessarily want to live another day as conf town? your decision my dear.

I also think this is a good time for everyone to claim.

yo. cape is gonna die regardless today. helz has another day to play and contribute. no reason to suggest you go over today to kill cape. cape can't flower child himself again. I doubt there is a second maf flower child you need to work around

[MartinGG99]

Oli isn't one to fake-claim (esp. when he would be claiming first among a PoE I think) so I'm kinda wanting to strongly bet that there are four town in Helz's PoE, wherein its me, MM, Porscha, and Oli.

MM
Mizery
MartinGG
Scumbot
Oliverz
Lilypetal
Porscha

Luka would have to be thrown into PoE as either mafia or neutral, and Helz hasn't really ever explained the Luka read beyond just naming luka as strongly not-mafia and not including him in the above PoE for possible scum.

[MartinGG99]

I might as well claim. Maybe its a bit suboptimal but honestly don't care atm and just want to amp up pressure on the PoE so they start doing more stuff.

This whole post earlier was me effectively role-claiming Soul Mate but disguised as setup speculation.

What concerns me though is that with Evil Teacher in the game its theoretically possible to see three (or more! -- just imagine if I had agreed to Helz's proposal on day 1) deaths in a single night. So i'm gonna guess that we probably have two town protectives. A fair number of the town roles have conditions to die (if they're in the game) and I don't think BH's incidental bounties are enough to support a single town protective from effectively limiting Evil Teacher + Mafia's NKs.

Outside of that though idk.

I'm preety sure I've made other breadcrumbs earlier in the game but I don't really care to bring them up right now.
@Luka @Auwt

Visit and protect a player from dying at night. If your target is attacked, your target will learn your identity and role, and you are bound to your target. Once bound, you may not visit again and if you OR the person you're bound to get attacked again, both of you will die. Cannot target self

This was the reason why I would never accept. Because firstly I AM one of the protects (who can't self target) who should protect a town/town bride thing, and furthermore if I had ever succeeded in preventing a death I myself would bound someone else to me. Meaning by agreeing to a bride I would either have to never protect or I would be risking three deaths from just one kill.

That's why I was only acknowledging your guys reasoning on day 1, because you all failed to account for the possibility that I was a (or for all I knew, at that time, the only) protective lmao.

[MartinGG99]

This was the reason why I would never accept. Because firstly I AM one of the protects (who can't self target) who should protect a town/town bride thing, and furthermore if I had ever succeeded in preventing a death I myself would bound someone else to me. Meaning by agreeing to a bride I would either have to never protect / always protect helz or I would be risking three deaths from just one kill.

edit by way of post

[Dark Magician]

Firstly, if you're scum here, you literally stole my soul or something like that. You're like... the ideal actually solvy townie acting like I would if I were in your mind. I am jumping in that lovely, warm and cozy pocket right here

MM face reveal in Martin's real pocket, 100 % true, trust me guys

translation: i am probably never lynching Martin here, and if you think he's scum, sue me


Regarding Lily: I know analogies are not perfect, but that's the downside of meta. Besides, considering I was literally the only push against her (at least the only serious one / the only one resulting in a serious vote), the situation isn't that different, and I was looking at the D1 here. She did say she wanted to be "low effort" this game, but there's "low effort" and... straight up not contributing lol. And Lily, if you feel like I'm unjustly behaving like I'm entitled to seeing you participate more, I'm not: you're really the lowest contributor of the game, and when you sign up for a game, you're meant to participate in it ;-;
Tbh, in hindsight, I could perhaps see her as a reaaally, reaaaaaaaaaaaally apathetic townie, but that's just disgustingly annoying lol. And besides, PoE needs 2 more scum aside from clearly scum Cape, and 2 more neutrals aside from dead Varcron, so I'm not inclined to give the benefit of the doubt too hard either.

Martin isn’t Mafia but he actually has a high chance on being a Neutral.
(Evil Teacher or Bounty Hunter.)

[Dark Magician]

For those still questioning my read accuracy.

I called Cape Wolf Day 1.
I called Varcron Neutral Day 2.