Selective Punishment

[Veliaire]

What is the protocol for adding people to reports? I have noticed that some mods will add in people they don't like and punish them for random crimes that weren't even reported. I am asking because I see that CheeseJuice was banned for being a smurf based on a report created by another smurf who remains unpunished. To add insult to injury, the smurf who created the report kept dropping N-word bombs which also went unpunished. Interestingly, the original account of the smurf was banned for racism.

When I brought it to the mod's attention on discord, I was told to make a report. But was a report made against CheeseJuice? No, but he was still banned nonetheless. When I tagged an active mod in discord she says its not her department. So who's department is it? Who deals with mods singling out people they don't like for punishments but ignore everything else?

[DJarJar]

generally you process the report looking at what was reported and if you see something else blatantly obvious to add then you add it.

Bank hacking and role quits for example are easy to see within 2 seconds of looking at the report so they will generally get added.

[JagdPanther]

That would make sense if the mod in question had no idea who WEWUZKANGZ is, but as you yourself linked in that thread, the very same mod banned him here:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...-S2-1-10371102

In that thread, the mod admits:
"This is a known guy from some time ago. All his reports were around 2019 and all ended in WLx4".

I can understand that mods won't catch every offense in every replay reported, but the case that Veliaire referenced is a clear case of selective punishment where the defense of "it wasn't blatantly obvious" doesn't apply. The reporter used the exact same name (that was known by the mod) in this forum to report the replay and spammed the N word within the first 10 seconds of the game starting. And we know for a fact that the player was on the mod's radar yet was not punished for ban evasion or racism.

[Veliaire]

That would make sense if the mod in question had no idea who WEWUZKANGZ is, but as you yourself linked in that thread, the very same mod banned him here:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...-S2-1-10371102

What's more, the mod admits on discord that he doesn't like JagdPanther and told me that I should start reporting people I hate if I have a problem with them.

[Veliaire]

Also, I love how I went from being "seems good" to "definitely mafia" since I posted this thread last night. I guess some people don't like being called out?

[Voss]

What's more, the mod admits on discord that he doesn't like JagdPanther and told me that I should start reporting people I hate if I have a problem with them.

Are you insinuating here that arcade team just bans people they have a problem with or hate? I read the discord messages and you were trying to goad Mr Mostache into saying he picks on people he doesn't like.

If you don't like the way sc2mafia arcade is run, go volunteer to be a keeper and process reports, or quit the game. Don't bitch about it in an unproductive way here.

[Veliaire]

Are you insinuating here that arcade team just bans people they have a problem with or hate?

No. I am saying flat out that the mod in question selectively punished JagdPanther because he doesn't like him, which he admits, while ignoring obvious rule breaking that he himself PUNISHED a couple of months ago... but this isn't your department, so why bother to even reply? I went to you on discord and you blew me off and now you have the gall to say I'm bitching about things in an unproductive way? That's rich.

But please, lets keep this civil and not take shots at one another because I don't want this thread shut down.

[Voss]

No. I am saying flat out that the mod in question selectively punished JagdPanther because he doesn't like him, which he admits, while ignoring obvious rule breaking that he himself PUNISHED a couple of months ago... but this isn't your department, so why bother to even reply? I went to you on discord and you blew me off and now you have the gall to say I'm bitching about things in an unproductive way? That's rich.

But please, lets keep this civil and not take shots at one another because I don't want this thread shut down.

Dunking on the unpaid volunteer staff is my department.

Again, you assume this malicious intent from the staff of "ignoring" people, so this thread is not going to be productive for any of us. Please do as the arcade staff has suggested: file more reports, or come up with some suggestion on how to improve the process.

[Veliaire]

Dunking on the unpaid volunteer staff is my department.

Again, you assume this malicious intent from the staff of "ignoring" people, so this thread is not going to be productive for any of us. Please do as the arcade staff has suggested: file more reports, or come up with some suggestion on how to improve the process.

This is not a personal attack against you, or even against the mod in question. I noticed what I saw to be unfair treatment and I am voicing my concerns. We all appreciate the work you unpaid volunteers do to keep this community going, but that doesn't mean that you are all infallible in every situation. What really prompted me to make this thread is when the mod in question admitted he disliked JagdPanther and then suggested to me that I should report people I dislike. That didn't sit right with me, and given my own personality I felt that I should speak up. Please don't take my criticism of one mod's actions as a critique of the SC2 Arcade staff as a whole.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

This is not a personal attack against you, or even against the mod in question. I noticed what I saw to be unfair treatment and I am voicing my concerns. We all appreciate the work you unpaid volunteers do to keep this community going, but that doesn't mean that you are all infallible in every situation. What really prompted me to make this thread is when the mod in question admitted he disliked JagdPanther and then suggested to me that I should report people I dislike. That didn't sit right with me, and given my own personality I felt that I should speak up. Please don't take my criticism of one mod's actions as a critique of the SC2 Arcade staff as a whole.

This is also not my department at all (I'm into forum mafia, not into the Arcade), but I think it's fair for me to speak up to direct you at the right place here

If there's a severe staff misbehavior issue that is not just mod abuse in the middle of an Arcade game (in which case I believe there is a section to report exactly that officially), I suggest you go make a thread in the Answer Hall with proof & explaination of the misbehavior (which means screenshots and all) so that action may be taken if necessary. You seem to have good intent here from what I can see, but are probably not going through the right channels.

[Veliaire]

If there's a severe staff misbehavior issue that is not just mod abuse in the middle of an Arcade game (in which case I believe there is a section to report exactly that officially), I suggest you go make a thread in the Answer Hall with proof & explaination of the misbehavior (which means screenshots and all) so that action may be taken if necessary. You seem to have good intent here from what I can see, but are probably not going through the right channels.

Thanks for the suggestion. Someone else suggested I do the same on discord, after I made this thread. I didn't want to be seen as spamming or having a "meltdown" as someone else put it, so I wanted to hold off on that for now to see how this thread goes.. but that's definitely next on my list after I take screenshots and dig through my replays to prove a pattern.

[Voss]

This is not a personal attack against you, or even against the mod in question. I noticed what I saw to be unfair treatment and I am voicing my concerns. We all appreciate the work you unpaid volunteers do to keep this community going, but that doesn't mean that you are all infallible in every situation. What really prompted me to make this thread is when the mod in question admitted he disliked JagdPanther and then suggested to me that I should report people I dislike. That didn't sit right with me, and given my own personality I felt that I should speak up. Please don't take my criticism of one mod's actions as a critique of the SC2 Arcade staff as a whole.

Slightly fair, but this is how I read that discord conversation. If someone's causing grief in games and I, as a hypothetical moderator, would have to keep dealing with the little shit, it would make me not like this individual. And I take it you also don't like people who ruin games.

I did not read it as reporting someone for not liking them simply for the sake of not liking them (aka better than you or does annoying unbannable things).

[Veliaire]

Slightly fair, but this is how I read that discord conversation. If someone's causing grief in games and I, as a hypothetical moderator, would have to keep dealing with the little shit, it would make me not like this individual. And I take it you also don't like people who ruin games.

I did not read it as reporting someone for not liking them simply for the sake of not liking them (aka better than you or does annoying unbannable things).

I'm sure that the mod in question feels he has a good reason for not liking JagdPanther, and maybe he did deserve to be banned. That's up to the people who do appeals to decide. My whole thing was the selective enforcement of rules. I don't buy for one second that he didn't notice the racism or didn't know that WEWUZKANGZ uses the n word because I have personally been in games with both of them and know that not to be true. Also, his remarks to JagdPanther about not being able to appeal was clear disinformation.

I don't want to assume the worst from people, but I feel that there is enough information here for a person to be able to ask these questions and not be made into the bad guy.

EDIT: The mod in question was observant enough to notice that JagdPanther and CheeseJuice both use the same phrases -- and that's how he figured out that one was a smurf of the other. Someone that observant doesn't just miss the n-word being thrown around, or that the person doing it shares an almost identical name as the person who he personally banned in the past.

[Auwt]

Imagine requesting an appeal at someone's place with the sole basis of having an another person, who was not initially reported, that was not recommended a punishment.
We are living in a strange world.

[ZZorange]

Imagine requesting an appeal at someone's place with the sole basis of having an another person, who was not initially reported, that was not recommended a punishment.
We are living in a strange world.

I mean this isn't really that strange. Plenty of people will jump to the defense of others if they feel an injustice has been committed. This happens all the time in the real world. It'd be an even shittier world if bystanders saw things they thought was fucked up, and didn't speak out.

[Veliaire]

Imagine requesting an appeal at someone's place with the sole basis of having an another person, who was not initially reported, that was not recommended a punishment.
We are living in a strange world.

I didn't know it was against the rules to post in a thread that you are not part of, in that section. Then the admin told me so, and I edited the comment and apologized. There's no need to even bring that up here because it's not even relevant, unless your aim is to just discredit me as a bad person or something.

[Auwt]

I didn't know it was against the rules to post in a thread that you are not part of, in that section. Then the admin told me so, and I edited the comment and apologized. There's no need to even bring that up here because it's not even relevant, unless your aim is to just discredit me as a bad person or something.

Oh I did not refer to the fact your post was against the rules or not.
What I meant was the intent behind it.

Now that you talk about discrediting...
Interesting...

[DJarJar]

Ok I see the issue. Sarcasm doesn’t come across well through text and you don’t know mostache well. That’s his standard response to someone attacking him for no reason - sarcastically agree. Maybe that’s not the most professional thing to do but this is a volunteer position and it’s extremely draining dealing with baseless nonsensical mod abuse accusations.

Please go back and re-read what he said to you on discord. I don’t see anything wrong with it at all. You clearly had some high emotions going and didn’t process half of what he said. Just search from mr mostache in discord.

[Veliaire]

Ok I see the issue. Sarcasm doesn’t come across well through text and you don’t know mostache well. That’s his standard response to someone attacking him for no reason - sarcastically agree. Maybe that’s not the most professional thing to do but this is a volunteer position and it’s extremely draining dealing with baseless nonsensical mod abuse accusations.

Please go back and re-read what he said to you on discord. I don’t see anything wrong with it at all. You clearly had some high emotions going and didn’t process half of what he said. Just search from mr mostache in discord.

You have been incredibly dismissive from the very start of this. Yes, we get this is is a unpaid volunteer position that you all chose to do. That doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to voice legitimate concerns.

This isn't an attack for no reason. This isn't a baseless mod abuse accusation. And no, I don't believe it was sarcasm when he admitted to not liking JagdPanther and then directed me to report people I don't like "too".

Was he also being sarcastic when he told JagdPanther not to appeal? And don't bother to respond if all you're going to do is slip in another insult.

[MrMostache]

I'm not sure why this discussion even lasted this long.

1. I told you to report kangz, you did, and aamirus approved your report.

2. I told panther that he couldn't appeal, my thought that it was very unlikely for his appeal to be accepted (just like that cute guy). aamirus corrected me and said everyone can post an appeal anyway.
P.S panther has yet to appeal and wasted his entire thread talking about me. Needless to say, I know where this is going.

3. panther has been throwing games, bankhacking, and smurfing. If you are defending him, you are trolling. More so, that you are reporting kangz for a crime you committed yourself, racism.

I don't know what your end goal here. Is it that you think I'm unfit to be a mod and should be removed? or are you just trying to have some fun? You would be more successful with the latter. I have done nothing worthy of a Mod Misconduct report.

[JagdPanther]

P.S panther has yet to appeal and wasted his entire thread talking about me. Needless to say, I know where this is going.

Mr. Mod may I direct your attention to the appeal rules here (you may not have read these since you're just a volunteer):
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l-Instructions

It states that "We need to understand why the Keeper who reviewed your report was mistaken and why you should not be punished per their recommendation. Reviewing a report once again takes additional time and resources so we ask that you take the appeals process seriously..."

I haven't appealed yet because you gave me two bits of (potential? maybe?) misinformation that I need to clear up first:

1. You told me I couldn't appeal
2. You mentioned I was banned partially due to the 2 minute night save

It seems both items are above are not actually true based on conflicting statements from others, and I'm trying to sort that out before I appeal. Or are you suggesting that I flaunt the rules and submit my appeal quickly without fully understanding the ban?

[Ryttun]

Jagd, why are you suddenly so interested in following the rules? You haven't seemed to care about them all this time, at least not in any of the games we played together. When someone asked you to follow the rules, you basically told them to fuck off, right? That's at least the evident attitude from your consistent bankhacking. But now all of a sudden you want to sit there and try to sharpshoot the mods and "appeal" over minutia when you know full well you deserve the ban. Just own it, man. This isn't a court of law, it's regular people trying to protect the integrity of a community-driven game. Integrity that you clearly don't care about.

Veliaire, you have a history of instigating unnecessary issues, at least with me. I wonder what your motivations truly are here? You have already been told to join the staff if you feel there are issues that need to be addressed, or make a specific, actionable report on the item. What's your end goal here?

You are both fortunate to have Mr Mostache protecting the game from people that would otherwise consistently ruin lobby after lobby while getting endless amounts of amusement from frustrating well-intentioned mafia players.
You know why I stopped being a mod almost instantly? Because I immediately understood all the grief these guys get from people who just want to sit behind their computers at home and get a laugh out of making them stumble, or are interested in trying to do some kind of "Gotcha!" moment. It's ridiculous, and you're only adding to the problem, Veliaire. The amount of effort mods have to put in to run a fair game is atrocious. And if you really, actually gave a shit about mafia itself, the community, or just trying to have fun in a 'party' game, you would recognize the pettiness of what you're trying to do here.

You want to run a fair game, Veliaire? Do what the mods said. Join the team. I know they appreciate your reports. You spend enough time on it already, may as well go all the way.


and for the record... Selective Punishment? don't make me laugh.. the only person who "selected" themselves for punishment here was JagdPanther. How does the proverb go? The nail that sticks out gets hammered? Don't be a massive headache for people and nobody will even bother you. In fact, there's a slight chance people might actually enjoy being around you... crazy, right?

But no, everyone only thinks about themselves.

edit: also why is anyone pretending that Jagd is being banned for a 2min night save? this is what classic misdirection looks like. You were told you were being permabanned for ban evasion, amongst all the other issues. is your 2min night save annoying? absolutely. bannable? of course not. lets not kid ourselves here. that is not what is going on here and you know it, and it's been spelled out for you already.

[NotPaopan]

I support Jadg on this matter.

I believe he/she should have the right to a fair trial

[Veliaire]

This isn't about me or my history with other players here, or about whatever JagdPanther may have done in the past and his history with other players here. Please stop making it personal. This post is about selective punishment. Whether or not something will be done is up to you. Just look at the comments I've gotten so far. I will say this, at least Voss tried to see things from my perspective and wasn't 100% dismissive after hearing me out, and I genuinely appreciate that. From others in a position to actually do something, all I have gotten are excuses and passive aggressive comments. I've been told I am having a melt down. I have been accused of harassment. My concerns have been dismissed as "baseless" and "nonsensical". It's all good because all it does is confirm what I already suspected in the first place.

Someone asked what I hope to get out of this. What's my end goal. That would be up to you to decide. If all you do is acknowledge your implicit and explicit biases, then that would be a win for the community.

And no, I don't want anyone removed as a mod. Why would they remove an unpaid volunteer for doing an incomplete job? It's still half the job done for free.

[JagdPanther]

Jagd, why are you suddenly so interested in following the rules? You haven't seemed to care about them all this time, at least not in any of the games we played together.

Because I just found out I can appeal since I asked in discord yesterday. Better to stop breaking the rules and play on a single account than to continue making smurf accounts, no?

Just own it, man. This isn't a court of law, it's regular people trying to protect the integrity of a community-driven game. Integrity that you clearly don't care about.

I've never said I don't deserve the bans for bank hacking and ban evasion, I'm just trying to appeal on the grounds of ceasing bank hacking and ban evasion.

edit: also why is anyone pretending that Jagd is being banned for a 2min night save? this is what classic misdirection looks like. You were told you were being permabanned for ban evasion, amongst all the other issues. is your 2min night save annoying? absolutely. bannable? of course not. lets not kid ourselves here. that is not what is going on here and you know it, and it's been spelled out for you already.

Because the mod that banned me stated "He is clearly bankhacking, and host a save with 2 minutes long night, prompting people to leave." The reason for the ban is bankhacking and 2 minute night save. If 2 minute night save isn't bannable, why even mention it? I'm just trying to clear that up before I appeal.

[Exeter350]

This is such an unproductive discussion, along with the one on Discord.

This is not a personal attack against you, or even against the mod in question. I noticed what I saw to be unfair treatment and I am voicing my concerns. We all appreciate the work you unpaid volunteers do to keep this community going, but that doesn't mean that you are all infallible in every situation. What really prompted me to make this thread is when the mod in question admitted he disliked JagdPanther and then suggested to me that I should report people I dislike. That didn't sit right with me, and given my own personality I felt that I should speak up. Please don't take my criticism of one mod's actions as a critique of the SC2 Arcade staff as a whole.

As I understand it, you have 2 issues:
(1) WEWUZKANGZ's offense was not caught and punished
(2) Mr. Mostache's response to your concerns

(1) WEWUZKANGZ's Offense

The original report was about KuBrofKuSKoC's hacking.
In that replay, there was another player WEWUZKANGZ being racist.

In past reports, additional players have been added for punishment if their offense is noticed by the reviewing staff.
In this case, CheeseJuice was added for smurfing & bankhacking, but WEWUZKANGZ's racism was not caught and punished.

First, please understand the report is about hacking.
The reviewer's attention would be focused on KuBrofKuSKoC's hacking, not other players' offenses.

Second, as you say, the staff is not infallible.
They cannot be expected to catch all periphery offenses, especially if it's not the focus of the report.

You saw a concern with the staff's (lack of) verdict on WEWUZKANGZ, you were told to file a report, you did, it was reviewed and approved.
Due punishment will be meted out.

I don't see an issue here except for your unrealistic expectations of staff to catch and punish ALL offenses in ALL replays.
However, is it better for staff to turn a blind eye to periphery offenses that they DO notice? No.

Option	Periphery Offenses	Remarks	Evaluation
#1	Catch and punish ALL offenses in ALL replays	Unrealistic, staff is not infallible	Bad
#2	Punish offenses when noticed	Will not catch ALL periphery offenses, but action can be taken when necessary	Good
#3	Do not punish periphery offenses at all unless directly reported	Cripples staff with bureaucracy	Bad

(2) Mr. Mostache's Response

You started the conversation on Discord by accusing Mr. Mostache of ignoring WEWUZKANG's obvious smurf and going after JagdPanther for having a 2 minute night sequence.

You and Watershark (JagdPanther) rile yourselves up for a bit based on your own assumptions of the situation.

Mr. Mostache tells you to report WEWUZKANGZ if he bothers you.
When you asked him why he didn't do anything about WEWUZKANGZ, he explains he only noticed JagdPanther in the replay.

He told you what to do if you wanted action to be taken against WEWUZKANGZ - File a report - which you did, which was approved and will result in a punishment.
He explained that he didn't add WEWUZKANG because he didn't notice him.

I'm not sure what else you're expecting from further discussion.

The only problems I see here are:
1. Your insinuation that Mr. M has a personal vendetta against JagdPanther
2. Your assumption that WEWUZKANG's smurf is as obvious to everyone else as it is to you
3. Your misdirection to JagdPanther's "2 minute night sequence" when the actual issue is smurfing and bank hacking
4. Your continued belligerence towards Mr. M after he explains that he didn't notice WEWUZKANGZ's racism

Jagd, why are you suddenly so interested in following the rules? You haven't seemed to care about them all this time, at least not in any of the games we played together. When someone asked you to follow the rules, you basically told them to fuck off, right? That's at least the evident attitude from your consistent bankhacking. But now all of a sudden you want to sit there and try to sharpshoot the mods and "appeal" over minutia when you know full well you deserve the ban. Just own it, man. This isn't a court of law, it's regular people trying to protect the integrity of a community-driven game. Integrity that you clearly don't care about.

Veliaire, you have a history of instigating unnecessary issues, at least with me. I wonder what your motivations truly are here? You have already been told to join the staff if you feel there are issues that need to be addressed, or make a specific, actionable report on the item. What's your end goal here?

You are both fortunate to have Mr Mostache protecting the game from people that would otherwise consistently ruin lobby after lobby while getting endless amounts of amusement from frustrating well-intentioned mafia players.
You know why I stopped being a mod almost instantly? Because I immediately understood all the grief these guys get from people who just want to sit behind their computers at home and get a laugh out of making them stumble, or are interested in trying to do some kind of "Gotcha!" moment. It's ridiculous, and you're only adding to the problem, Veliaire. The amount of effort mods have to put in to run a fair game is atrocious. And if you really, actually gave a shit about mafia itself, the community, or just trying to have fun in a 'party' game, you would recognize the pettiness of what you're trying to do here.

[...]

edit: also why is anyone pretending that Jagd is being banned for a 2min night save? this is what classic misdirection looks like. You were told you were being permabanned for ban evasion, amongst all the other issues. is your 2min night save annoying? absolutely. bannable? of course not. lets not kid ourselves here. that is not what is going on here and you know it, and it's been spelled out for you already.

This man's telling it like it is.

100% agreed on everything.

[Exeter350]

Because the mod that banned me stated "He is clearly bankhacking, and host a save with 2 minutes long night, prompting people to leave." The reason for the ban is bankhacking and 2 minute night save. If 2 minute night save isn't bannable, why even mention it? I'm just trying to clear that up before I appeal.

I think in such situations you should ask yourself, does it even make a difference?

The primary concern here is the smurfing (permaban) and bank hacking (point ban).
Hosting a save with 2 mins long night causing people to leave COULD be considered griefing (WL / BL) if done with the intention to frustrate other players, but that's pretty difficult to prove.

If I were you, I would focus on the bigger issues, which is your smurfing and bank hacking.
What is the point of nitpicking over the griefing accusation? Even if you're not griefing, you'll still be permabanned for smurfing.
Whether or not it is an unfounded accusation, it has no bearing on the final outcome.

Please realise the position you are in.
You are a rule-breaker making an appeal to reduce / remove your punishment.

When you are begging for forgiveness, it is best to make the other party as receptive as possible, yes?
Being nitpicky instead of focusing on the key issue is counterproductive to your goal.

That's not to say that unfounded accusations should be allowed to slide.
I just think you should challenge that AFTER you clear the bigger issues.
Otherwise you're just wasting everybody's time.

[Exeter350]

What is the protocol for adding people to reports?

Going back to your OG question, I don't think there's a fixed protocol, I believe it's really up to the reviewing staff whether they notice, and whether they choose to enforce.
Many of my replays have rolequitters and racists in them, who are not punished because my report is for other players and other offenses.
And I don't see an issue with that.
It's just not practical to go after everyone.

If you file a report directly, it will be acted on.

Not sure why Velly is raising such a ruckus about this lol.

It's only "selective punishment" if some people are given preferential punishment after being reported directly and are clearly guilty.