S-FM D e m o c r a z y (14P)

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Marshmallow Marshall presents...

D E M O C R A Z Y


Rolelist
Power Role
Power Role
Power Role
Power Role
Lobbyist
Lobbyist
Lobbyist
Conspiracy Theorist
Conspiracy Theorist
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Power Roles are not unique and exclude Lobbyist and Conspiracy Theorist.


Rolecards
Citizen
You are a citizen involved in local politics.
You have no special abilities, but keep in mind your vote is power! (See Mechanics for the special vote system)

Lobbyist
Some flavor here
You share a permanent chat with the other Lobbyists. You do not know their alignment.

Conspiracy Theorist
You are an enlightened person who sees the world as it truly is: a merciless struggle for power. You have an equally enlightened person to assist you in your truth uncovering endeavor.
You share a night chat with the other Conspiracy Theorist. Each night, you may conduct a perfectly legitimate and professional team investigation on a target to determine whether they are corrupt or honest. You have to agree on your target choice with your fellow Conspiracy Theorist for the investigation to succeed. If the other Conspiracy Theorist dies, you cannot investigate anymore.

Possible Power Roles

Lawyer
You are a lawyer, dutifully helping your fellow citizens with your knowledge of the law when you believe they are wrongly accused.
At night, you may choose to reveal as a Lawyer (which means nothing about your alignment) on the following day, giving your anti-vote a value of -1 instead of -0,5. This effect never expires.

Doctor

Auditor

Motion Detector


Win Conditions

Honest: Eliminate all corrupt players.
Corrupt: Outnumber honest players or be in a situation where that cannot be prevented.



Mechanics
Three players will be randomly assigned the "corrupt" alignment at the start of the game; the host will generate three random combinations of roles and alignments and will pick the one deemed to be the most enjoyable (yes, this is intentionally vague).
Corrupts have a factional kill and a permanent chat. They also have a factional framing ability, which makes targets appear as corrupt to investigative roles. All factional abilities can be carried alongside with role-related actions.
Days last 72 hours, nights last 24. (May be changed by the host to 48/24 if requested and agreed on by players)
Lynch is plurality + majority.
In addition to your vote to lynch a player (which has a value of 1), you have the ability to vote against the lynch of a player by mentioning the host in the thread and saying in bold green text: "-support [player's name]". This vote has a -0,5 value. You may use both votes on every day.
Skipping is allowed, but only one day may be skipped per game.
(LWs/DNs?)



Rules
Forum Mafia Rules apply.
Remember this is about having fun for everyone. Avoid personal attacks and don't cheat. The host will not hesitate to intervene appropriately (warnings, force replacements, or modkills assuming there is no reasonable way around them) if necessary, but would rather not have to do anything and be able to sit back and enjoy the show =)
Have fun!


Voting mechanics inspired by Helz's idea.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Very much WIP as you can probably see.

Flavor should be about something democratic - and I'm thinking of town level democracy, not muh stolen election democracy.

Non-vanilla roles on all sides should have things to do with votes, perhaps items as well (items that do things about votes!)

Suggestions, thoughts and prayers are welcome ^^

[OzyWho]

Instead of putting that extra vote method in each role cards, I think it's more convenient to just add it under _Special Mechanics_.

Loving the democracy theme btw.

In most game days, more often than not EoD consists of 2 main wagons.
I feel like as it currently is - this new voting system would change basically nothing, as I believe most people would be inclined to Support the counter wagon of their preferred lynch. Though, in practice it might be different and worth testing.
But I rather people can just choose between support vote and lynch vote, as I believe that'd have a higher potential to bring interesting results - especially if different days hold different values for each type of vote. As an added benefit, it'd make the hosts life a lot easier.

What 3p role are you thinking?

[OzyWho]

A probably bad idea:
-Have game be 3v9
-Have Day1 be lynchless, but the _Major Election Day_. Major's vote power is doubled.
-Have 1 TP be a Doctor.
-Have 1 MP be a Roleblocker.
-Have 1 MP be a Backup-Roleblocker.
-Maybe give the 3rd Moofia a 1-shot cleaning.
-Have 1 TP be a Motion Detector.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Instead of putting that extra vote method in each role cards, I think it's more convenient to just add it under _Special Mechanics_.

Maybe, will see when the setup is more complete than it currently is.

Loving the democracy theme btw.

yay :P

In most game days, more often than not EoD consists of 2 main wagons.
I feel like as it currently is - this new voting system would change basically nothing, as I believe most people would be inclined to Support the counter wagon of their preferred lynch. Though, in practice it might be different and worth testing.
But I rather people can just choose between support vote and lynch vote, as I believe that'd have a higher potential to bring interesting results - especially if different days hold different values for each type of vote. As an added benefit, it'd make the hosts life a lot easier.

I think your suggestion actually encourages going all-in on disrupting counterwagons instead of actually defending those who shouldn't be lynched - and furthermore, it doesn't really change much compared to standard voting, since voting against someone is often just as good as putting an anti-vote on whoever you want to defend. The idea is to be able to place both votes. The reason I gave the anti-vote a 0,5 value is to avoid having completely nullified day phases.

What 3p role are you thinking?

Something relating to votes, perhaps someone who wants to be "elected" or something like that. I'm not even sure I want one yet, it just felt appropriate to at least throw the idea in.


As for your setup suggestion, I'm afraid that's a completely different spirit. It's interesting, but it also isn't what I want to create; it looks more like a mayor election focused setup (basically like S-FM President).

[OzyWho]

veto Jester

[Marshmallow Marshall]

veto Jester

Don't you worry, it wouldn't be a standard Jester. I hate standard Jesters. But perhaps a role that would benefit from being lynched once without winning from it? It'd have to be a pro-town neutral so that town would want to keep him alive after that.

[OzyWho]

veto f2claim role

[Helz]

If your following the +1 -1 idea I would just genuinely caution the weight it brings to a team scum that knows their team mates. Lost wolves or town blocks would break up the advantage but I do think giving a -1 ability to votes gives a team block a substantial advantage and could add some big swing depending on how the player base uses the potential.

[Lumi]

I think the real effect of this kind of mechanic is that it will make it far easier to CFD.

Imagine day 1, the trains are dead locked with 6 votes for Player A and 6 votes for Player B (with a single player not voting, and another player casting a vanity vote for Player C)

Because the main trains are A vs B, anyone that wants A eliminated will place a support vote on B. Anyone that wants B eliminated places a support vote on A. So now the trains are at 6+ votes and 6- votes each, for a total weight of 3v3

Nearing EoD a CFD engages, 1 player from train A and 1 player from train B switch their votes off to vote for C instead, C now goes from 1 vote to 3 votes. The two main trains, that still have 5 voters a piece on them, are now sitting at 2 and 2. Player C is eliminated.

Normally you would need 4 voters, 2 from each wagon, to switch to C to get them cleanly eliminated. But with this system you only need 2

So are CFD's generally good for town? Or are they generally bad for town?

I think they're usually not bad for town because of the amount of extra information town gets out of the flip from a CFD

Although a clear downside for town is that it lets a very small number of players heavily manipulate the flip for a day when you have two entrenched trains.
And that one can definitely be seen as a big boon to wolves.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think the real effect of this kind of mechanic is that it will make it far easier to CFD.

Imagine day 1, the trains are dead locked with 6 votes for Player A and 6 votes for Player B (with a single player not voting, and another player casting a vanity vote for Player C)

Because the main trains are A vs B, anyone that wants A eliminated will place a support vote on B. Anyone that wants B eliminated places a support vote on A. So now the trains are at 6+ votes and 6- votes each, for a total weight of 3v3

Nearing EoD a CFD engages, 1 player from train A and 1 player from train B switch their votes off to vote for C instead, C now goes from 1 vote to 3 votes. The two main trains, that still have 5 voters a piece on them, are now sitting at 2 and 2. Player C is eliminated.

Normally you would need 4 voters, 2 from each wagon, to switch to C to get them cleanly eliminated. But with this system you only need 2

So are CFD's generally good for town? Or are they generally bad for town?

I think they're usually not bad for town because of the amount of extra information town gets out of the flip from a CFD

Although a clear downside for town is that it lets a very small number of players heavily manipulate the flip for a day when you have two entrenched trains.
And that one can definitely be seen as a big boon to wolves.

I agree with this, and think +1 and -1 makes this too much of a reality. -0,5 is enough to create a change and to allow some shenanigans, but it still makes it necessary to have a reasonably high popular support to CFD.

Also, if a small group of people just goes "Hey we lynch this guy" outside of any consensus, I dare hope this picture will not be representative of the other townies:

[Helz]

That would be true if players were allowed to vote for both +1 and -1 at the same time. Could just stop that by declaring they can only do one of the two at a time.

I would also be curious how meta would change with that. I do not think all players would voice opposition to a counter train. In my experience most of the time people see 2 wagons and say "Im not opposed to train B but out of the two options I would rather see train A flip"

The mechanical information generated from opposition votes would have an interesting twist on wagonomics as well..

[OzyWho]

I would enjoy seeing how "vote +1 or -1" changes the game.
Deep down I hope it wouldn't at all, because in that scenario I do think it'd be fairly anti-town to ever end a day with a veto vote. After all, only 1 slot gets lynched per day while many others don't - and if my math is correct then that makes lynch votes much more influential than support votes. (Unless there's a different or alternative EoD affect than Lynch)

I personally kinda prefer MM's version over Helz's because I imagine there's 0 incentive for people to use veto votes given how powerful are lynch votes by comparison.


This might be a little out there, but I think there's some potential in this setup for making it alignment flipless?

MM, what's the idea with having same Mafia role as Town role? The Mafia will have some form of Janitor role?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

That would be true if players were allowed to vote for both +1 and -1 at the same time. Could just stop that by declaring they can only do one of the two at a time.

I would also be curious how meta would change with that. I do not think all players would voice opposition to a counter train. In my experience most of the time people see 2 wagons and say "Im not opposed to train B but out of the two options I would rather see train A flip"

The mechanical information generated from opposition votes would have an interesting twist on wagonomics as well..

In such a case, people should simply never place an antivote: either they do not want to lynch someone because they have a better candidate in mind and thus want to vote that candidate, or they don't have any scumreads and want to skip or to vote someone else because they think the current candidate is towny, so they create a counterwagon. Really, it probably wouldn't change much outside of giving people the possibility to play suboptimally most of the time, except perhaps in the last case, where both a counterwagon vote and an antivote would be viable. Thus, I find it uninteresting, honestly, at least when it's meant to be the central element of the setup. In another setup with another central topic, it could be interesting, though.

I would enjoy seeing how "vote +1 or -1" changes the game.
Deep down I hope it wouldn't at all, because in that scenario I do think it'd be fairly anti-town to ever end a day with a veto vote. After all, only 1 slot gets lynched per day while many others don't - and if my math is correct then that makes lynch votes much more influential than support votes. (Unless there's a different or alternative EoD affect than Lynch)

I personally kinda prefer MM's version over Helz's because I imagine there's 0 incentive for people to use veto votes given how powerful are lynch votes by comparison.

^

This might be a little out there, but I think there's some potential in this setup for making it alignment flipless?

I dislike flipless setups, but that's just my personal taste :P maybe there's some potential? I'm not sure why there would be more potential here than anywhere else, though.

MM, what's the idea with having same Mafia role as Town role? The Mafia will have some form of Janitor role?

I might not do it with all roles. The idea was to include the Lawyer as a public role without it being the equivalent of an Innocent Child with a buffed antivote; the intent is not to make a mayor-focused setup.

[OzyWho]

I might not do it with all roles. The idea was to include the Lawyer as a public role without it being the equivalent of an Innocent Child with a buffed antivote; the intent is not to make a mayor-focused setup.

As it is, I don't think the Corrupted Lawyer would ever use their ability until before the final day. Real Lawyer would always CC them.

I understand it correct that if a Lawyer ability is activated N1 - players would know about it only after seeing the vote results at EoD2?
I don't think the Corrupted Lawyer would want to be a CC until before it's MyLo or LyLo. The solution? Have D3 have the potential to be a LyLo, which is 7v2 setup.

I dislike flipless setups, but that's just my personal taste :P maybe there's some potential? I'm not sure why there would be more potential here than anywhere else, though.

The idea was to have many roles such as the Lawyer without each flip lowering the PoE mechanically and keeping the game pure, if that makes any sense.
Sort of like a mixture of All Stars and Small-Town Mafia, but themed more like Politico.

Speaking of Politico, what do you think with just Politico with this vote system?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

As it is, I don't think the Corrupted Lawyer would ever use their ability until before the final day. Real Lawyer would always CC them.

I understand it correct that if a Lawyer ability is activated N1 - players would know about it only after seeing the vote results at EoD2?
I don't think the Corrupted Lawyer would want to be a CC until before it's MyLo or LyLo. The solution? Have D3 have the potential to be a LyLo, which is 7v2 setup.

Hmm, I could make them mutually exclusive to avoid CCs. Or I could just change the role. I don't really have ideas for power roles, actually...

The idea was to have many roles such as the Lawyer without each flip lowering the PoE mechanically and keeping the game pure, if that makes any sense.
Sort of like a mixture of All Stars and Small-Town Mafia, but themed more like Politico.

Speaking of Politico, what do you think with just Politico with this vote system?

Hey, it looks like it'd work super well! It could be interesting to see what the Congressmen would do with their votes, considering they have their own little chat. Do you think it's fine and not a waste to just copy Politico here and make some changes to adapt it to the voting mechanic? ^^

[OzyWho]

I don't really have ideas for power roles, actually...

Spoiler : Town :

Citizen
You are fantastic!

Gunsmith
At night, you may gift a player of your choice a 1-use extra support vote power for the day.
You may not target yourself.

Armoursmith
At night, you may gift a player of your choice a 1-use doubled support on self for the day.
You may not target yourself.

Auditor
At night, you may target a player, and receive a full list of when and what items they have received.

Confiscator
At night, you may target a player, and remove all items in their possession from play.
The player you target is informed.

Detective Detective/Lookout/Motion Detector
I personally like Motion Detector the most.
I personally dislike Detective the most, assuming Moofia can use items while performing faction kill.

Authenticater
You are overpowered for this setup therefore you do not exist.

Disabler
At night you may target a player. Their votes, as well as votes on them, will be unaffected the following day.

Tracker
You're no fun either, go away.

Shaman
At day, you may activate your ability, which will cause all vote manipulations to fail. This ability is one use.

Conspicuous User
You may use your extra support power item as a gun or your doubled support power item as a vest the following night.
or
You may transfer your items to someone else.

Spoiler : Mafia :

Blacksmith
At night, you may gift a player of your choice a 1-use extra support vote power or a 1-use doubled support on self for the day.

Counterfeiter
At night, you may gift a player of your choice a fake 1-use extra support vote power, or a fake 1-use doubled support on self for the day.
For either of which you choose, you may choose it's effect between:
-The items have no effect.
-Their vote power and/or vote powers on them are reduced by 0.5.
The fake items appear as real ones to the owner.

Thief
At night, you may target a player, you will receive all of their items.
The player you target is informed.

Graverobber
At night, you may target a dead player, you will receive all of their items.

Agent
At night, you may target a player, and either watch who they visit and watch who visits the player you targeted.

Blackmailer
At night, you may target a player, if that player can create items, they are then blackmailed to make an item for you.
The item in which they make are random from their capabilities.
The player is not informed.

Multitasker
You may use up to two items at same time.

Conspicuous User
You may use your 'extra support vote power' item as a gun or your 'doubled support power on self' item as a vest the following night.
or
You may transfer your items to someone else.

Mafioso
You have no special abilities.

Rigger
At night, you may rig a players last item.
Any attempt to use a rigged item will result in the item failing and the players death.
The rigged items appear as real ones to the owner.

Spoiler : Other :

Witch-for-Item-Giving-Abilities, Busdriver-for-item-receiving
You exist because you're fun.

Town Interceptor
You deny a player all items they receive for the night, but you learn all the items - including if they're real or tempered with.

Mafia Interceptor
You intercept all items a player receives for the night and get them yourself.
Also you're a porch pirate.

Roleblocker
You exist because why not?
Also, you're a Instagram model.

Mafia
You guys can trade your items because it's funnier that way. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Neutral

You may use all the abilities in the game, excluding Rigger.
You may target yourself.
Once, you may steal someone's vote power for a day.

You win when you've had influenced the game by a total of 10 Vote Power.
When you win, you exit the game and a random towny dies.

Spoiler : other other :

Double the amount of possible roles by making a day version of each role. Day versions aren't item givers but active influencers.

Spoiler : other other other :

just make a 9-3-3 from SC2, except:
-Mafia have the same roles as Town except buffed.
-All roles are modified for vote manipulation. (e.g. Vigi removes vote power for a day while a doctor restores it. Faction kills can't be affected.)

Hey, it looks like it'd work super well! It could be interesting to see what the Congressmen would do with their votes, considering they have their own little chat. Do you think it's fine and not a waste to just copy Politico here and make some changes to adapt it to the voting mechanic? ^^

If politico didn't exist already, I think it'd have been some interesting.
But playing an actual carbon copy of an existing setup, with just mechanical change, sounds.. boring? At the very least - making it does. Honestly, I'm the wrong person to ask. I never even played Politico before judging it uninteresting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I was just pitching

Spoiler : Offtopic :

Btw, in the Smiths, I think there are some... oversights..:
-red Conspicuous User has 4 charges while green Conspicuous User has infinite
-Some roles have "1-use night armour" while others have "1-use armour/vest".

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Hey, I said "and make some changes"!

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I went ahead and changed the spirit of the setup a little: it is now based on interest groups who have separate chats! Alignments are now unrelated to roles.

[OzyWho]

Is this the most private chats any SC2Mafia setup has ever had?
Seems more centered around private chats than vote shenanigans. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not a big fan of Conspiracy Theorists tbh. It's sort of like having a sheriff with a Last Will. And if one of them is a Mafia, I honestly see no reason for Mafia to not kill the Town CT and for the Mafia CT to claim Citizen. In both scenarios - it seems powerful for Town. Town would probably just discuss CT's target in the thread I imagine, and they'd just comply.
I feel like a nerf is necessary. Like make it 1-shot and N2, or give the Mafia a framing ability.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Is this the most private chats any SC2Mafia setup has ever had?
Seems more centered around private chats than vote shenanigans. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not a big fan of Conspiracy Theorists tbh. It's sort of like having a sheriff with a Last Will. And if one of them is a Mafia, I honestly see no reason for Mafia to not kill the Town CT and for the Mafia CT to claim Citizen. In both scenarios - it seems powerful for Town. Town would probably just discuss CT's target in the thread I imagine, and they'd just comply.
I feel like a nerf is necessary. Like make it 1-shot and N2, or give the Mafia a framing ability.

Aye! It should be interesting ^^

I intend to give the Mafia some kind of framing ability, perhaps as an attribute of a corrupt conspiracy theorist. The idea is to create a massive WIFOM situation among the two colleagues where the results they get could just be false information fed by a scum colleague.


Oh also, this probably goes without saying but the setup is experimental and absolutely not meant to be your everyday average game (hehe).

[OzyWho]

Tbh, this gives me Illuminati vibes more so than Politico vibes for some reason.
For the intended WIFOM regarding the Conspiracy Theorists, making the setup rng be like in Illuminati would increase it. (From ~25% chance to have evil CT to like ~50%)

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Tbh, this gives me Illuminati vibes more so than Politico vibes for some reason.
For the intended WIFOM regarding the Conspiracy Theorists, making the setup rng be like in Illuminati would increase it. (From ~25% chance to have evil CT to like ~50%)

Illuminati also inspired me (name and flavor + the whole "mafia can have illuminati or not" mechanic). I don't want to make the game centered around the CTs though, and it would be a little complicated to keep the roles functional and not incredibly suspicious if I gave them additional odds of being scum... Therefore, I'm not going to add that. I gave the corrupts a factional framing ability in addition to the factional kill, though.